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Poster: clementinescaboose Date: Apr 8, 2011 10:57pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH- a monumental barnburner of epic proportion and one of the finest spring tours ever.

i hear yah. '78 is a bit overrated to me. there are some serious barnburners from this era, i espically like the music on DP 18, as well as a lot of these april shows (4/24 is another gem - outrageous Scarlet>Fire). but the playing is generally not anywhere near the laser precision of '77.

that's ok for me though; i love '69, and i think we can all agree that year was anything but tight...

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Poster: utopian Date: Apr 9, 2011 8:23am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH- a monumental barnburner of epic proportion and one of the finest spring tours ever.


Did you listen to this show?

This post was modified by utopian on 2011-04-09 15:23:45

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Poster: clementinescaboose Date: Apr 9, 2011 1:15am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH- a monumental barnburner of epic proportion and one of the finest spring tours ever.

never said this show was. but as a whole, yes i think it is.

sloppy musicianship, jerry's voice changing, kieth slide into oblivion, etc. the fall is terribly overrated imho, especially 12/31/78.

not saying there weren't many great moments - there were. i like the fact hat '78 has way more edge than '77 most of the time, '77 can get boring. but at the same time, it's just not nearly as consistent...

This post was modified by clementinescaboose on 2011-04-09 08:15:07

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Poster: utopian Date: Apr 9, 2011 8:45am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH- a monumental barnburner of epic proportion and one of the finest spring tours ever.

Agreed- 78 has more edge than 77

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Poster: grateful phishmon Date: Apr 9, 2011 7:31am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH- a monumental barnburner of epic proportion and one of the finest spring tours ever.

1978 was definitely a major dropoff year. They were never the same after 1977, though I would put 1981 over 1978, and certainly 1989-1991. There were a few very good shows, but in terms of consistently solid and often spectacular play, 1977 was the last year. January 78 was an extension of 1977, with 1/22/78 one of the last truly great shows. I disagree that 12/31/78 is overrated, though - that one's really good. Just check out the DVD - Jerry's in the zone on Dark Star>Other One>Dark Star>Wharf Rat.

Another year I think is highly overrated is 1971. That was the "garage Dead" year to me - nasty sound, not a lot of jamming, at least until Keith joined in the fall. Things opened up again in a big way in 1972.

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Poster: grendelschoice Date: Apr 10, 2011 2:34pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH- a monumental barnburner of epic proportion and one of the finest spring tours ever.

April run of 1978 would disagree:

check out 4/8, 4/12/,4/16 and 4/24.

all outstanding performances (4/8 and 4/24 and 4/16 contain some of the best S>Fires ever...4/12 an all-time Row Jimmy...many more examples.


altho' I agree '78 can't hold a candle to 1977. To my ears the Greatest Dead Year Ever.

(there is, of course no right or wrong to this debate other than the fact that '92-'95 was the worst.)

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Poster: madmonkmcphee Date: Apr 9, 2011 12:28pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH- a monumental barnburner of epic proportion and one of the finest spring tours ever.

Gimme any show from '78 over '74, I just don't get why so many people love '74. To my ears, this is the most overrated era, horribly muddled sound and uninspired playing. At least they have some great rock n roll energy in '78, the most punk rock Dead year. Check out 6/25/78, furious....

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Poster: grateful phishmon Date: Apr 10, 2011 11:38am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH- a monumental barnburner of epic proportion and one of the finest spring tours ever.

I must respectfully disagree regarding 78 vs 74. I don't think it's even close, actually. Uninspired playing? 74 had some all-time jams; check out 6/18 and 6/23 for starters. In 74, you knew you'd at least get one fairly massive jam each night. There were Truckin>Nobody's Fault>Other One>Spanish Jam sequences. There was at least one Playin>Uncle John's>Morning Dew> Uncle John's>Playin loop. Song-wise, there were some significant additions by 78, including Estimated, Terrapin, and Lazy Lightning>Supplication, but they stopped playing Dark Star, WRS part 1, and the outro jam of Eyes. Playin', Truckin', and The Other One all got substantially reduced in scope. Due to the big jams, I put 74 above even 77, though not as good as 73.

Keith's playing severely dropped off from 74, when he was an improvisational counterpoint to Jerry, to 78 when in a drug daze he would often play the same chords all the way through a jam. Jerry often played phenomenally in 78, and the other members were solid as well, but Keith's uninspired playing brought the band down. Plus the shows were often quite short. That said, the show referenced in the OP is quite good, although it does have the Keith problem, and the second set is a good ~ 90 min despite only one song after drums. I'd still take 78 over most of the 80's.

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Poster: clementinescaboose Date: Apr 9, 2011 4:50pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH- a monumental barnburner of epic proportion and one of the finest spring tours ever.

i respectfully disagree, 1974 (along with 1973) is without question the bands most creative and inspired year.

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Poster: utopian Date: Apr 10, 2011 9:27am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH- a monumental barnburner of epic proportion and one of the finest spring tours ever.

You said, " 1974 (along with 1973) is without question the bands most creative and inspired year."
---------

for you.... perhaps,

Ben Franklin once said to never speak in definitive statements, they can be rather easily defeated with reason. Quantitatively it's impossible to assign 'best' in the non measurable realms like; art, food, music, and
spiritual pursuits. From the individuals level There can be healthy discouse on matters such as; personal affinity, stylistic
leanings, and generating greater amount of personal joy. But while they are real for us, they are Not fact for others.

Observve:
Shia muslim is the most high religion
Twinkles are the strongest aphrodisiac
Nuclear is the cleanest source of power

While some people, many people may agree it does not make it fact.

..........,,
So I would respectfully question







This post was modified by utopian on 2011-04-10 16:27:32

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Poster: deadhead53 Date: Apr 10, 2011 11:53am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH- a monumental barnburner of epic proportion and one of the finest spring tours ever.

To me, I think 71 was a great year but I do agree with the poster about 71, the fall is pretty good with Keith and one drummer, but those april-may shows from 71 smoke. For me though the honey hole year was 72, many, many, many great shows. Europe and then those stanley shows late in Sept of 1972. It is hard to go wrong with any 72 show for me. While i like 77, at times I feel they are playing the same show over and over, great musicianship but sometimes boring sets. 78 has some moments and I do like this 4/8 show but after 78 for me it was hit or miss. I enjoy the 81 shows, then after 81 there are great runs but it always comes back to 72 for me. They never seem to have an off night and some great setlists. I place the 60's in a category of their own, at times you cannot compare anything from 66-69 to anything. The 60's stuff is phenomenal, great jammin and spread out stuff, pig is up in the mix, you can feel the band getting it! I do agree that one cannot make definitive statements, just too many of us with opinions about what year we like and love. This is why I love this forum, although me personally after 1982, they are hit or miss and I don't think you can compare it to anything in the 70's or 60's but I will not criticize anyone for lovin his period, if you love the Dead that is fine with me!

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Poster: clementinescaboose Date: Apr 10, 2011 10:36pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH- a monumental barnburner of epic proportion and one of the finest spring tours ever.

sorry utopian, this is an indisputable fact. 1974 is hands down the Grateful Dead's most inspired and creative year ;^)

in all seriousness though, i am frequently rather facetious on this forum. i agree that art is not something that can be quantified necessarily, though i would somewhat disagree in that i do think it can be to an extent.

for example, *i think* that 1973/4 is the band's most inspired year(s) b/c of the dexterity of the playing, the complexity of the performances, sound quality, etc - all quantifiable imho. which can certainly be quantified and argued for other years, like 1977.

but thank you again for calling me out on this, so few question may assertions and i'm always open for a healthy debate.

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Poster: utopian Date: Apr 11, 2011 10:52am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH- a monumental barnburner of epic proportion and one of the finest spring tours ever.

Ha ha

Somehow these forum discussions seem turn into the age old era debate. Which I would be happy to talk about, although I think it tends to he mire fun and interesting when people have listened to and can appreciate the subtle nuances of the sound and how it changed in yearly or 2 year- ish cycles. (not just the common outlook of; 'I like this year but not this year.' As I brought up some time ago; the band didn't have a meeting on new years day to officially change the sound. There was overlap, mix, experiments, prevalent themes.

So, as a someone in this thread mentioned, it's impossible to compare 60's dead to anything else. The musicians were somewhat the same but the sound was not. So it's easier to translate comparisons within the respected era. For example; 68 to 69, 78 to 79, 89 to 90.

I have to be in the mood for anything pre 77. While i have collected and listened to several complete years of the early 70s, i like some of it (2cd set jam suites, the overall sound of 72 especially and 73, 74 lends more to the folk, country, cowboy feel, more than my preferred level. Alot of people think anything The pace of the groove is much more cohesive to my ears in 77-79, they were more 'on the one' to any James brown fans, and the shows had more of a pace from start to finish. With fall of 79 being, if i had to pick, the highest expression of mindbending funk, dueling Garcia and Lesh leads, and blistering jams.

And honestly don't understand the obsession sone people seem to have with their small pockets of favorite time periods, to the point of never looking out, their mind is made up and concretized. ( but some people enjoy eating hotdogs every single day, and its their right) As I see Many peaks in the deads career, and try to keep the rotation fresh and listen to others recommendations, except 92-95, which I can't seem to see much redeeming value.

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Poster: utopian Date: Apr 9, 2011 8:16am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH- a monumental barnburner.... And one he'll of a 1/2 step

77 is a year that didn't have an off night, to my ears.

I would agree that while 78 had some brilliant moments like 4-8-78, they
also had some dreadfully awful embarrassing moments like 4-6-78, which could be on the all time worst list. Or some of the shows they were howling and hooting onstage in sone sort of drug addled orgy.

The band was doing some really hard partying in this period, and Keith well....he was asked to leave for good reason.... Lots of fighting, and generally being in a stupor.

12-31-78 was indeed overrated, and I will even go a step further and tell you why. It was slow. Another dreadfully overratted show from 78
is 12-16-78....

But while having said that and conceded that particular point, an interesting observation is the use of that word in this community. A sort of blanket statement which many have hovering in their vocabulary that lends itself to be an all encompassing, glaze-over, blanket statement.


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Poster: clementinescaboose Date: Apr 9, 2011 11:33am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH- a monumental barnburner.... And one he'll of a 1/2 step

i agree with that...i think people throw it out sometimes w/o thinking about it really, or giving things a chance. i generally try not to do that, though i've certainly been guilty of it.

and i did listen to this show btw - though i admittedly skipped the first set stuff and went right for the meat. it's pretty solid stuff, but not quite as exciting to my ears as 4/12, 4/16 or 4/24...

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Poster: utopian Date: Apr 9, 2011 12:11pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH- a monumental barnburner.... And one he'll of a 1/2 step

you said
........."i think people throw it out sometimes w/o thinking about it really, or giving things a chance. i generally try not to do that, though i've certainly been guilty of it.

and i did listen to this show btw - though i admittedly skipped the first set stuff and went right for the meat"

.......

Guilty again? perhaps but......What part of you thinks the second set is the meat? if you havn't listened to the first set?

.......


thankyou for being an honest good sport and proving my point. Few people on this forum are unbiased in the eras they trod. I hear alot of blanket statements with no attempt at healthy debate, examples, or demonstratable expertise. And I would ask people to dig a little deeper, make up their own mind and listen to things enough to make an informed, cogent, amicable case for healthy debate. Preconceived notions let us pre-judge the real essence of art and cloud our future outlook to pre definition, complacancey and general bore.

thank you kind sir
peace

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Poster: clementinescaboose Date: Apr 9, 2011 5:02pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH- a monumental barnburner.... And one he'll of a 1/2 step

and you're totally right about preconceived notions. they have gotten in the way of my enjoyment of music which i had deemed "unworthy" in the past. i have tried very hard to break out of this pattern and make informed decisions for my self and not the sake of others. but we all slip back into old habits now and again ;)

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Poster: clementinescaboose Date: Apr 9, 2011 4:53pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH- a monumental barnburner.... And one he'll of a 1/2 step

you have a point there. but i consider "the meat" of almost any show the second set jam suites, especially in the later years when there were far fewer 1st set extended jams or surprises. so i guess i tend to rate a show based on the strength of these jam suites. i think, for example, the 4/24 scarlet>fire is much stronger than this one.

and again i see your point, i am potentially skipping over some worthy music, and not rating the show as a entire event which has an ebb and flow, highs and lows, etc., that can have an effect on the enjoyment of the music. which is a bit close minded of me i suppose.

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Poster: utopian Date: Apr 10, 2011 9:42am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH- a monumental barnburner.... And one he'll of a 1/2 step

I would totally agree that the meat in 72, 73, 74 shows tended to be in a pocket if the second set. The first sets I have heard some describe as warmups in those days. With the rapid explosion of new songs during that period There is sense of 'sitting through' more of the first set of sometimes standard readings.

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Poster: billydlions Date: Apr 9, 2011 6:00am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH- a monumental barnburner of epic proportion and one of the finest spring tours ever.

I'll have to second your opinion. I think 1978 is the worst year of the Keith years and way below many Brent years as well. For whatever reason the great playing in the fall of 1977 was gone by the beginning of the year. The set lists were dull (too many Bertha's-Miracle-Good Lovins). Other than the great Scarlet-Fire's there is just not a lot to get excited about. Of course there are some very good shows that I do like, 12-28-78 is one of them.

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Poster: Cliff Hucker Date: Apr 9, 2011 5:25am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH- a monumental barnburner of epic proportion and one of the finest spring tours ever.

I agree. To me, the band sounds rather dull and tired after '77. Some shows are much better than others, and I much prefer '78 to '79. With the exception of a couple shows, I find it very difficult even listening to anything from 1979.

Sure there are some very good performances during 1978, though I can't think of one that I would consider "monumental"